You cant change that. In fact, you can take it a lot farther than that. Have seen the exact same thing. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? So yeah, theres really NOBODY looking over Driscolls shoulder. Harvest Bible Chapel issued a statement today: Pastor James MacDonald came upon a sleeping bear while walking in the back yard of his modest home today. I am there; have been close to 8-years now. This comes after several calls from other people including members and deacons of Harvest Bible Chapel, for them to . Honest question: why does it matter what Paul thinks? Sadly, many have not served well. For the one or two people who read ALL the way through these comments to my own. Dallas Jenkins, the creator of the most successfully crowdfunded series of all time, "The Chosen," said he's setting the record straight for the last time on the matter of whether he believes Mormons are Christians. us gray hairs, unfortunately, have experienced allot (hence gray hair), and the funny thing is that while technology progresses, human behavoir really does not change. This has been going on now for 12 years. Maybe you should have considered the consequences of your actions, or inaction, before you decided to hitch your wagon to JM. If a church tries to appoint elders who dont meet the qualifications for eldershipthe church dies. I am not suggesting that this is or is not the way Jesus intended for his church. They all seem to be on display at HBC. I say run. Thats why Im asking LLS (and Ken/Tweed, if he wants) how do these worship men, not God structures ever have any mechanisms at all to keep from going wildly off the rails? You should make your case by offering proof. a word for when you throw up a basket of fruit and everything settles in a different place, and youre confused because you understood each thing in relation to all the other things. So there is that. He is best known as the creator, director and co-writer of The Chosen, the first multi-season series about the life of Jesus of Nazareth.. Jenkins's career is focused on faith-based media. 4107 N Steele Blvd, Fayetteville, AR, 72703, United States. * Gaga sees them as self-righteous. Years ago, I decided to go forth with my name on this blog I did it to help people who have reason to suspect that their identity could cause them problems with out of control churches If yo have a problem with anonymity, take it up with me. (They had to turn away so many customers while the church buses pulled up singing hymns for what had effectively become sold-out private showings.). Jenkins has produced many TV series and films. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. God reaches out to us, one on one, and he will continue to administer his healing balm to your soul. Seriously, I believe 100% that the theological DNA is the problem, and that Truth was genetically modified centuries ago. Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents. It didnt reveal anything new. Maybe that was why Elmer Gantry had such impact. There are other places for the truly repentant to serve in the church. Its Greshams law applied to religion: bad drives out good. My church is also a UMC church looking at that kind of ministry. ++++++++++++++++++++. These charlatans cannot be allowed to get away with this. My Comment was Deleted Almighty God himself being murdered by a corrupt religious cabal in collusion with the Roman military. not greedy for money Live with it. The way back: 2 Chronicles 7:14 but I dont see much movement in that direction. Friend: What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. Where in scripture does God say that elders have authority over those they care for, or that elders should rule over them? For me I choose to pray and let God work, he never ceases to amaze especially when he answers prayer. Theyre showing their colors alright. Funny how highly institutional types value the written word of God, yet despise the teaching of godly elders that is available to one and all in countless books written through the ages. Lured by the hope of sitting someday at the right hand of The Man JMac, not Jesus. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth? Luke 18:8. I hope somebody has kept good documentation somewhere of all such dealings that could be produced as evidence. a lover of what is good I presume this is because he has a much bigger platform, but if that is not the reason, I am open to hear. It is pure hearsay or flat gossip to engage in tearing down other church bodies in an effort to be judge and jury in the place of God. Dallas Jenkins (born July 25, 1975) is an American film and television director, writer and film producer. And we are in the Lent season. be in sin, Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? And you sound profoundly arrogant. When we separate believers into clergy vs. laity, pulpit vs. pew, us vs. them failing to equip and mobilize the saints to do the work of the ministry we miss what God intended for His Church and fall short of living in the Kingdom of Heaven here and now. First was Willow Creek Community Church and lead pastor, Bill Hybels. So I come here to learn, share solace and insights, and tell the odd bear joke. Dallas Jenkins: commenting from anonymous online handles. that exploited the public of Harvest Bible Chapel (the profits of which you enjoyed and benefited from). And to link them together as a Body of Christ, each one uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole something the institutional church just doesnt appear to get. Bridget: I dont know, Ken. Chicago is witnessing the implosions of two famous mega churches due to the allegations against their leadership pastors. Most were started by a mere man who was convinced that his mission had more of a corner on the Truth than the rest. All that we could come up with was that we, and they, were faithful and generous givers and attenders of the mens bible study. Looking at the history of newer religious organizations created in the era of print is instructive and revelatory. Please forgive me. And thats the cold, hard truth. Today Harvest Bible Chapel is a family of Christ-adoring worshipers on multiple campuses throughout Chicagoland. Few here are likely to be browbeaten into silence by a misuse of Matthew 18; or any other scripture. Thats a smoking crater of a response. In the last two years, 75% of the Executive Leadership team has left HBC. Just Do. Shes gone out of her way to state otherwise. Same thing I guess. The elders in one church have no say over those in another. sober-minded Accept that and use this springboard given by God to be the leader God always intended you to be. Even with the woman who lies in your embrace guard the words of your lips. Not just then but through darker times which subsequently came (including our own trials with another Harvest outlet). Their goals are solidly biblical, and the show appears to be bearing fruit to the glory . John: When I now go to a church, I want to speak with elders. it is wrong. The Bible is clear that all people are God's creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who have faith (trust) in the work of Jesus are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10). Jenkins's career is focused on faith-based media. I tend to trust her judgment here. You and the other TWW regulars feel like family. Retch, gag, and barf, it gets old, it really does. A group began meeting and praying together in 2011. Remember, God is the master designer!!. Its sad to have lived to such a ripe old age to witness a generation that doesnt respect their elders as they ought. Yet with their plausible and attractive arguments they deceive those who are too simple-hearted to see through them (Romans 16:17). Id only add that the scar and damage to my faith as a result of Harvest is real, deeply painful, and permanent. etc. Wow. FOR WITHOUT THEM ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF THE CHURCH. But some dopes might not think they were so funny, eh?. Whether its a yes-man or someone the lead guy has dirt on, its easy enough for these types to have a handful in pocket. (Amy, thanks for the clarification on Amy/Lauren). Rather, as all of these spiritually abusive situations demonstrate, the flock is likely to be deceived and preyed upon by wolves in sheeps clothing. Samuel Conner: I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). Be wary of falling into the trappings you so boldly wish expose. * Gaga sees them as self-righteous. I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys! Max responding properly (thats all I will say). Ive stepped inside a church once in the last three years; we were out of town visiting friends, and they invited us, and my wife looked at me like Please, honey, just this one time, lets not make a scene. So I went along and it felt something like being in the car, trying to teach my teenager how to drivewhite knuckles. but also why it doesnt seem to happen in the institution. Register today! But I suspect that since McDonalds first job is being a pastor, it would not surprise me if this was a canned hunt. This is how all men will know that you are my disciples, because you have such love for one another.. Gathering during this time was unique. whether agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, wiccan, mormon, straight, lgbtq,. PRESBUTEROS = EPISKOPOS = POIMEN A flock without herdsmen will quickly go astray. As Paul cautioned the church at large to beware of Alexander, he has done us much harm, so the watchblogs speak to inform and warn other believers to be wary of certain leaders. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? More leaders must take a stand and shine the light of truth. When she cleared the backlog, the partial Lauren went through along with my original longer one. And in January, Moody installed Mark Jobe as the 10 th President of the Moody Bible Institute, replacing Thornton who had served as interim president. Not exactly the mild and loving spirit of Jesus. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: So, so much we dont know. I once perceived this as a tragic loss, leading only to hopeless cynicism. Narcissistic business CEOs mistreat their subordinates and the nastiness flows downhill within the enterprise. The Chosen is Different. Your desire for those far flung hundreds of thousands or millions whod been influenced by his ministry to know the cold, hard truth shouldve trumped any desire to keep things in house. The bit about only a unanimous vote of their executive council being able to remove the lead pastor theres a recipe for success when grievous wolves are not unexpected. Apparently, many pastors have opted to preach the gospel for the wrong reasons .. to toss out the name of Jesus now and then while they work their deception to benefit themselves. He claimed to be a guy who could show people the way. Indeed. FOR WITHOUT THEM ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF THE CHURCH. I doubt that the facts will stop MacDonald from making an unrepentant comeback. 1. Max: This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the Truth. and the thought of gathering up ones gumption and taking risks is tiring. I am now beginning to wonder if it is not simply the beginning of wisdom. So why not allow comments? And this being heard is not merely some desire for gossip or vengeance, but a desire to confront evil and protect the rest of the naive flock from being manipulated, abused and otherwise taken advantage of. In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? SiteSeer: I see nothing denoting an office. It seems like to me that in a group of people, these things sort themselves out without anyone declaring it to be a position and appointing people to it. My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. (Dee). Faith Driven Team September 6, 2021 Bio, Christian investor, Voice. If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. But, I aint Paul, so I suppose I will just have to wait and see how this sorts itself out in eternity. The only church Fred has ever worked for his Harvest. Good words, Fisher. I am sorry for your pain. If I were you, I would review what happened at Mars Hill and the Mark Driscoll implosion. Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. Dont let the hypocrisy of men lessen your trust in God. If you have questions, concerns, or encouragements for them, they would love to hear from you. .. I will reflect on your honesty and embrace the possibilities. A friend became nearly apoplectic when I tried to explain this. 3/1/2023 - 7:00pm-8:00pm. There was a letter by Dean Butters that was leaked this past week. No more circumcision. Airing Mr. and Mrs. MacDonalds dirty laundry or private correspondence in that case on a public forum would be gossipy and downright cruel. You cant express truth sufficiently in religious teachings and traditions; it can only be found in a relationship with Christ. a Christian/inspirational filmmaker, and former Director of Visual Media and member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel . http://www.globalpokerindex.com/poker-players/frederick-adams-169223/. dont do anything just because you want to (that would be selfish) but wait until you hear from God. So this ole guy is here until the Lord moves me along or my comments stop making sense (please tell me if they do). To do that you must have first hand knowledge and part of that fellowship in some fashion in order to be qualified to hold people accountable before God. Kids Night Out. The evidence points to a scam designed to benefit one person only. When people look back on the history of the American evangelical movement in the first years of the third millennium, I sure hope they will shake their heads and ask why we put up with this nonsense for so long. This will always happen, there is no way to avoid it. Gods blessings to you. So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? Ishy: Probably took over where my favorite Vietnamese restaurant used to be. . The images of Christs mother Mary witnessing her sons torture, the glances and faces of the cast Mel Gibson portrayed were (and frankly still are) made to elicit deep evil and were very frightening to see, and the utter agony of Christs pain was so graphic, I still cant erase it from my memory. Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? or being in a job that is problematic and you know there is something that pays more, treats you better, and is more up your alley yet there is still comfort in what is familiar. All kidding aside, may you, Jessica, Ryan Mahoney, Dee Parsons, any many others who are continuing to fight the good fight be richly blessed. And while it is no surprise that these so-called churches, which represent one of the most insidious movements in the history of the Christian Church, are ending in self inflicted destruction we can find some comfort that people who were led astray by them can find solace in other groups of believers who I am sure would welcome them with open arms. James and you have lived a lifestyle for a long time of trying to prove that Jesus lied. https://classroom.synonym.com/the-role-of-the-clergy-in-the-greek-orthodox-church-12087637.html. From all the people I know in those churches, I think thats exactly what happens! Dallas, you have a lot to learn about life, and perhaps a lot to learn about the One Who spoke of whispers in the inner rooms being shouted from rooftops. None of us called Christian should reach the last chapter of life and still be asking What is truth? dont let the mere teachings of men distract you from finding it read the red and pray for revelation! its, like, the top christianese word that means so many different abstract things (depending on whos using the it) that it sort of means nothing anymore. Truly hope you get peace and joy soon. Id say largely because the leaders themselves have been told to believe this. There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, all while commenting from anonymous online handles. And I think (as an atheist heathen) that what people really need is community, not so much the religious stuff. Max: And to link them together as a Body of Christ, each one uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole something the institutional church just doesnt appear to get.Whose job is the ministry?Every believer has a part!When we separate believers into clergy vs. laity, pulpit vs. pew, us vs. them failing to equip and mobilize the saints to do the work of the ministry we miss what God intended for His Church and fall short of living in the Kingdom of Heaven here and now.Jesus talked a LOT about living in the Kingdom we would do well to read His words living in the church doesnt always mean living in the Kingdom.Based on my 70-year snapshot of the institutional church, theres a vast difference in what Christ describes vs. what we have put together in this thing we call church. It is not elaborate but adequate for what we seek to do for Gods Kingdom. -, I figure whenever Paul was speaking to us through Scripture, he was drawing from his personal knowledge of the Kingdom of God rather than what he thought about it. Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. The churchs vision was to plant 10 churches in 10 years. By 2002, our church-planting ministry Harvest Bible Fellowship (HBF) was formed, and ten churches were plantedin just four years! As another new, unforeseen door opened to bring Harvest to the Aurora area, 200 people from the Elgin Campus were sent south, opening as the Aurora Campus on January 23, 2011. I can only imagine what was said as explanation, particularly as my spouse (still blindly loyal) remained much longer than I, until our children put up a united appeal to leave. Dallas Jenkins: Thats it! If its any comfort, other steps are being taken. Through the generosity of the Green family, the founders of Hobby Lobby, we received the entire property for one dollar. i have an observation: i know many people who dont subscribe to christianity, yet are the most excellent human beings. Perhaps its the side deals as well. January 24, 2023. Shout it from the housetops!! While some noble souls may have stayed longer thinking they could make a difference and persuade JMac to be a better man, the wise ones would have realized this to be an impossible task and took the first opportunity to get while the gettin was good. Harvest members face losing their church homes over this man, yet he is planning on exporting this secret personal enrichment scheme, that is not at arms length, throughout the U.S. . it has a b in it. this time facilatated by the internet, just like the last one was with the printing press.. Well, age doesnt always equal wisdom, but it helps! Besides, nobody goes there anymore its too crowded. Yogi Berra. So join the club. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. (Ephesians 5:11). TS00: Why would a quickly growing church choose an unproven young man, father of very young children (along with others similarly unproven, all from our young marrieds class) to be an elder, responsible for overseeing and counseling others? My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. I believe he also was something of an unwitting prophet, possibly used by the Lord Himself, to reflect a mirror back at U.S. Christendom. I hope that the HBC and WC churches become text book examples for future generations of Christians of what not to do. Max:in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture.I dont see the point in saying that you are a Christ-follower if you dont get to know Him through reading His Word. I was in a back and forth with some supporters of another well-known abusive megachurch leader recently, and one of the fans of the leader assumed I was posting under a made-up name and then slammed me for my cowardice as being anonymous. If she ends up with child porn on her computer which she can just barely turn on to view Facebook Im going to guess JMac or somebody planted it. Hall, Ive been consistent here and elsewhere under another net handle and under my actual name that I dont think the guys up to any good at all, either years ago or now. Restore him to ministry? Hard to imagine that they would ever voluntarily fission into smaller groups. The Story of Alleged Abuse at Sankey Orphanage in the Philippines and Its Relationship to Christ Community Chapel, Tom Randall, and Joe Coffey, Former Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonaldFired, https://swbts.edu/news/releases/game-banquet-uses-hunting-venue-spread-gospel/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48, http://churchbuildingministry.org/who-we-are/, https://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+chosen+producers+james+macdonald&t=ffsb&ia=web, http://www.wsop.com/players/profile/?playerid=72494, http://www.globalpokerindex.com/poker-players/frederick-adams-169223/, https://classroom.synonym.com/the-role-of-the-clergy-in-the-greek-orthodox-church-12087637.html, https://www.archbalt.org/clergy-personnel-division/bishops-priests-deacons/. Therefore, churches today need to endeavour to attain a point where they are able to have elders. However, he has never won . Again, like you, I am aware anew of Gods presence in many different places and people, and recently most poignantly in marginalized communities and people. GOD SAITH!!!!!. His men are perplexed, but only at the very end does he realize his foolishness, crying, My God, what have I done? before aiming his dying body at the detonator to blow up his glorious creation. I know Jesus is real and know He loves me, but too much of the Bible and Jesus name got mixed up with the abuse going on to my children, my wife, my friends and me. Thats their business, doesnt have jack to do with church abuse. Then I read actual instructions on the veneration of Elders as of Christ himself. So Guidepost "determined that using Twitter was no longer an option for them." Yet another reason why the financial transparency laws for religious non-profit entities needs to change. *whispers* Its possible it wasnt three years. Remnant, youre welcome! We now see, via ECFA, that these massive personal perks were evidently excluded from their comp review, meaning James has likely been under reporting his income to the IRS by hundreds of thousands a year. At the very least, they need to reveal ALL they know, including leading the charge to open all of the financial books, including known and secret accounts. Its ok to admit more of you need to to completely clear the air. ME GREAT WHITE HUNTER! Although, in a few places in Scripture he paused to advise us that he was speaking about a matter offering his opinion rather than what God was saying. That is because genuine relationships among people are an existential threat to the cult. Leila: he will be partnering with a music minister from another local church and they are starting a church service in a bar on Sunday evenings. That argument may not work as there are other factors to be considered. God looks lovingly upon your confusion and pain, and wants nothing more than for you to find and know him as he truly is, apart from all of the hypocrisy and falsity that parades as the institutional church. In September of 2012, we experienced another provision of God, in the form of the Scottish Rite Cathedrala historical landmark we reclaimed for the gospel in the heart of Chicagos Gold Coastwhich became the Chicago Cathedral Campus. The elders, set in place by God Himself (Ephesians 4:11), are to watch over, tend to and care for the flock of God. Evangelicalism began going after talent over the least among you and I truly believe it actually is a large part of the failing of all of these churches. When I left the church I had served very visibly in for over a decade, ONE person made the effort to seek me out to wish me farewell. Ego-stroking that includes WOMAN, SUBMIT!!!! You have done some confession, but in private only. (1 Peter 4:14). Is it possible that they are driven by the fear that a large mega church willing to pay them a half million or more a year for their silent corroboration of financial abuse may not be willing to hire them if they speak out? Ive been in churches where folks in the pew worshiped the property more than Jesus! Whatever ministry is going on at Harvest, is going on as a cult. Its obvious that theres not enough scintilla of evidence to convict most of them of being Christian. PRESBUTEROS, when translated to our English language becomes elder or presbyter. Harvest Bible Chapel issued a statement today: Pastor James MacDonald came upon a sleeping bear while walking in the back yard of his modest home today. Vertical Church Band released four albums through Essential Records: Live Worship from Vertical Church in 2012, The Rock Wont Move in 2013, Church Songs in 2015, and Frontiers in 2016with the last two albums peaking at #1 on the Christian Billboard chart. 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